On 12 Jun 2006 15:24:51 GMT, Rene <invalid@email.addr> wrote:

>Anyhow, WoW is a MMORPG. The MM stands for Massively Multiplayer. If you
>want to solo exclusively, I dare say that you are playing the wrong game -
>and paying monthly for it, too. Playing some other RPG and having a IRC
>window open in a channel for the same game will probably just as swell.

Massively Multiplayer should not equate to "sitting in IF/Orgrimmar for
hours waiting to get a chance at a group". That's not fun. It took me three
DAYS (was sat in Org for 3-4 hours 3 days running) to get a group for SM
last week, and I was on a *priest* ffs... what chance do people in less
wanted classes have?

>WoW is meant to interact with other players. You should socialize in some
>form. If you don't want to, then really, why bother playing this game?

Of course you should socialise in an MMO. That doesn't mean it should be
*forced* upon people, as it is currently; where the only way to improve
your character is by enduring larger and larger groups.

And instances aren't social anyway - they're putting up with a random bunch
of idiots in the hope that something useful will drop. It's unusual to find
a person in an instance group that you'd want to become a friend - groups
out in the open perhaps, but instance groups are very artificial, and the
big loot brings out the worst in greedier people, very much putting off the
better people, so that they'll only group with friends. Meaning you're
unlikely to meet anyone new who's worth bothering with.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 42)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 31)

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:18:34 -0400, ModernCelt <sywscott@ptd.net> wrote:

>Socializing and grouping are not mutually dependent. It is certainly
>possible to socialize and NOT group...Think about that for a moment.
>
>Massively Multiplayer is not the same as Massively Mustgroup.
>Multiplayer simply means more than one player. In no way does it mean
>that you must, have to, should, want to, should want to, or even try, to
>group.

Well said - put into words what I wanted to say.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 42)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 31)

"Rene" <invalid@email.addr> wrote in message
news:20060612112500.148$Ey@newsreader.com...
>
> Anyhow, WoW is a MMORPG. The MM stands for Massively Multiplayer. If you
> want to solo exclusively, I dare say that you are playing the wrong game -
> and paying monthly for it, too. Playing some other RPG and having a IRC
> window open in a channel for the same game will probably just as swell.
>
> WoW is meant to interact with other players. You should socialize in some
> form. If you don't want to, then really, why bother playing this game?
>
> Interestingly, I find this mindset, albeit not as extreme, almost only in
> players who play a rogue or hunter. May be a contributing factor to the
> bad
> general attitude attributed to players of these classes.

I think people put way too much emphasis on the "MM" part...sure, it's
"massively multiplayer", but that doesn't mean your every online moment
needs to be spent with a group. Lots of people enjoy soloing, but like the
idea of other people being on the same game for chatting, for purchasing
items, for joining up for brief interludes ("I need to kill Alexi Barov,
wanna help?"), for RP purposes, that sort of thing. So, people who like to
solo MMORPGs doesn't bother me in the slightest, especially since I'm one of
them (although my druid rarely solos...usually I'm playing my druid with my
best friend, since he was created for that purpose). The thing that _does_
bug me is the people who think the "MM" means they're free to beg for gold,
beg for help from a level 60 in a level 20 instance, etc. I ended up having
to place a fellow guildie on /ignore with Chey last night because he spammed
in the guild channel over and over again, begging for someone to come help
him level. Not for anything specific, just someone to come kill mobs for him
through his entire level.

But, regardless of that, an MMORPG, even for someone who prefers soloing,
has a far better "feel" to it than a single player RPG. And then, of course,
you have the PvP side of things; a single player RPG wouldn't have nearly
the complexity of actual players on the opposing team trying to add your
scalp to their collection. You never know what a player might do or try in
his attempt to kill you, whereas a computer-generated character is pretty
predictable.

--
<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Bovinis, 59th level Tauren Druid, Emerald Dream
Cheynne, 60th level Human Priest, Draenor
Faunacate, 48th level Night Elf Hunter, Draenor
Apollorah, 41st level Human Paladin, Ner'zhul (retired...?)

Firian <G.Booth@*nospam*usm.edu> wrote:
> I think people put way too much emphasis on the "MM" part...sure, it's
> "massively multiplayer", but that doesn't mean your every online moment
> needs to be spent with a group. Lots of people enjoy soloing, but like the

Indeed. People seem to forget that the MM was describing the number
of people that could be online in the same virtual world at once, not
how they were (or were not) interacting. When UO came out, very large
MU* games might have a few hundred people on them at the same time ...
I never played M59 or NWN (the original one) so don't know the sorts
of number they were pulling but UO provided that quantum leap in population
ability.

"Conker" <never@neversoft.yet> wrote in message
news:X4adnWvrDpj4ORHZRVnyhA@bt.com...
> Tbh I think this kinda thing is needed @ higher levs too.
>
> Maybe 5 man instances with potential 'epic but not quite as good as
> endgame epic' items in there. I am in a nice but small guild with a raid
> alliance which aint working (EU Shadowsong) and I have zero chance of
> seeing anything above valor for my warrior despite hours n hours of play
> (40+ days currently with 21+ @ lev 60). Chances of getting into a BIG
> guide...zero too...yet the peeps I play with always say what a good
> warrior I am....
>
> C'mon Blizz I know the 0.5 stuff is for casuals....how many casuals have
> got past the 45 min run I ask.... but howabout a 0.25 set from 5 man
> instances following BC release ?
>

Wait till you get to Lord Valthalak, you have no real chance of killing him
unless they're in a good raiding guild.

"Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> writes:
>Chingy a =E9crit :

>> How can ya gold farm when blizz can make BOP all the items in 1-2 men
>> instance and fewer items drops, eg good drop only come from main boss
>> and that should be BOP hell they even make the disenchant BOP's to
>> useless items instead of shards.

>The only acceptable way in my opinion would be to make these instances
>absolutely rewardless (no xp, no loot), as challenges only.

How about rewards only for quests in the solo instances, so you
can do it once for XP/items (for each quest), but after that,
just for fun.

---
Merlyn LeRoy

Catriona R wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:47:47 +1000, "Chingy" <NoDamn@britney.com> wrote:
>
> >Hmm I would love to have 1 men instance where you could get some good items
> >and quests completed they could reset it every week or so or every
> >fortnight, any thought or idea on this.
> >
> >Cos I am sick of trying to get groups for instances like
> >uldaman,RFK,RFDcaverns,gnomer its very hard to get a group
> >going(Bronzebeard) so why can't blizz make some instances which is based on
> >1-2 players game play style eg mix monster with few elites not all elites
> >like regular instance.
> >
> >What do you all think ..
>
> Very much needed, I hate trying to get groups - I'm a rogue, the most
> unwanted class in any group (with the possible exception of hunters), and
> even worse, I'm not specced with improved sap, so even when I get in a
> group I'm made to feel useless for that. Plus I'm a loner in general; much
> prefer working alone or with one or two friends. 5-man groups are ok
> (although finding a balanced group is a pain; there are never enough
> healers or tanks), 10-man is tolerable, any bigger is too big for me.
>

Eh, I think I prefer a Hunter in most groups to a Rogue, since the
Hunter can AOE a bit and can do some useful things like use his pet to
tank a mob or kite a boss while we kill the boss's adds. Rogues Sapping
is nice, but a Mage can Sheep instead.

If you plan to do a lot of grouping then why don't you respec to
Improved Sap? I respec'd to be better at Molten Core because that is
what my guild is doing a lot of recently. We can always respec to
something else when the situation changes.

> I'd really love some 2-man instances; I've been enjoying duoing with a
> friend a lot recently, and we've done a lot of elite quests you'd expect to
> need a larger group for (Fozruk at 39/40 for example!), which is really
> satisfying; a whole instance would be great. Keep meaning to try and get
> through part of Scarlet Monastery with him; could be very fun if we can
> control the runners.
>

Try doing instances that are lower level then you as solo or duo. If
you are high enough above the instance I would imagine it to be doable.
The level cap at 60 will probably keep you from ever doing Scholomance
with two people, but that might not even be true after the expansion
comes out. Even though the BOE equipment is probably worthless to your
character it could be really nice for an alt or you can just sell it on
the Auction House and get rich.

> And solo instances would be fantastic - I had an absolute blast tonight on
> my hunter, soloing part of Stockades at lvl 30 (and the exp was incredibly
> good, as all the mobs were still green), but it's clearly designed for more
> people, and with the amount of time it took me to kill my way down one
> wing, the first ones I'd killed had respawned by the time I came back, so I
> had to give up on trying the other wing. Will give it a shot in another
> level or two though - having soloed most of the quests I want to finish the
> remaining two solo. However, Stockades is a rare instance which is actually
> fairly easy (sadly there's no good drops there), and hunters because of
> having pets are particularly good at soloing. There's no comparable options
> for most classes - sure, I take my lvl 60 rogue through Wailing Caverns now
> and again, but it's hardly a challenge with a suitable reward!
>

So you had fun soloing the Stockades and you then also claim that there
are no instances to solo? Do you see where that doesn't make sense? I
think what you really want is a soloable instance for your level. Well,
Blizzard made the world outside of instances for soloing or group, so
that is where they see you doing the majority of your soloing and
leveling.

If Wailing Caverns is no fun for your 60 then move up to the next
instance. Try soloing Scarlet Monastery. With 4 wings to try I would
guess there is several hours of instance to try out there.

> I imagine a reason such instances aren't in the game is class balance, as
> all the current instances are designed to need several different classes,
> for dps, healing, tanking etc. My main idea to solve that is by making only
> single/double pulls (adds being avoidable with care), and for the mobs to
> damage more as the fight goes on. So DPS classes without healing/damage
> reduction can just go flat out on dps and kill them fast, while tanks or
> healing classes will receive more damage, as they take longer to kill the
> mobs, but will also have higher damage mitigation or be able to heal.

I also think this is the reason. If Blizzard made a soloable instance I
would imagine it would be too easy for some classes, too hard for
others and just right for a few. So then do you limit it to only
certain classes can run the instance? That seems like a lot of
programming work for a small percentage of the game population.

As a level 60 Warlock I often times have difficulty soloing 1 or 2
level 60 elites in the outdoors. The elites just have too many hit
points and hit too hard when they do hit me for me to fight most of
them. Blizzard created elites to be fought by groups. It takes a
variety of skills to soak up the damage the elites dish out, heal those
tanking, and deal enough dps to kill them in a reasonable amount of
time. No single class has all of that and that is why you need to group
to kill elites. And if there were no elites groups would tear through
normal mobs which are intended for soloing (or they put enough of them
together to require a group to handle them).

Those are my thoughts on it.

Later,
~Rehlow

ModernCelt wrote:
>
> Socializing and grouping are not mutually dependent. It is certainly
> possible to socialize and NOT group...Think about that for a moment.
>
> Massively Multiplayer is not the same as Massively Mustgroup.
> Multiplayer simply means more than one player. In no way does it mean
> that you must, have to, should, want to, should want to, or even try, to
> group.
>
> Let us say that one usually only has about one hour a day to play and
> loves the game. In that 1 hour he can spend 15, 20, 30 minutes looking
> for a group to do something (a quest, an instance, anything), then
> another 10-15 gathering the people to begin the fun, then leave them in
> the lurch 15, 20 or 30 minutes after starting the instance (Or
> whatever). I would not want to ever play with that person again, they
> left us in the middle of something that THEY asked us to do.
>
> I am that person. Unless I have a reasonable amount of time to spend at
> one sitting, to devote to contributing to a group, no matter WHAT we do,
> then I will not group. It is not fair to those I play with. Period.
>

Find a guild to join. Even some hardcore guilds will let in casual
players. I have found being in a guild makes it incredibly easy to get
a group together to run an instance. If everyone is not already doing
something I can log on, start getting a group together and then if we
can't fill a full 5 man group, quickly find 1 or 2 more people with LFG
and get going. If the group is all guildies we know there will be no
issues with looting and I am even happier when someone wants to need an
item because I know it is making the guild stronger.

If you only have an hour to play at a time it might be incredibly hard
to ever do Scholomance or Stratholm, they just take too long. Is your
plan for a soloable instance to start the instance, get to point A
after an hour, log off and then pick-up where you left off later on? If
I remember correctly, if you log out in an instance and come back much
later you log in at the start of the instance. I guess Blizzard could
change that for soloable instances and change when the mobs respawn,
but that is a lot of changes to a model that looks like it currently
works pretty good.

Later,
~Rehlow

On 13 Jun 2006 16:00:41 -0700, "Rehlow" <newsgroup@rehlow.com> wrote:

>Eh, I think I prefer a Hunter in most groups to a Rogue, since the
>Hunter can AOE a bit and can do some useful things like use his pet to
>tank a mob or kite a boss while we kill the boss's adds. Rogues Sapping
>is nice, but a Mage can Sheep instead.

Rogues sapping is useless; it needs perfect timing and even with the
talents still has a chance to fail and aggro everything around (plus more
often than not it breaks a *lot* earlier than it should), so our only real
function in groups is damage and stuns. My reference to hunters being less
popular is down to their poor reputation, and the havoc a badly-controlled
pet can cause.

>If you plan to do a lot of grouping then why don't you respec to
>Improved Sap? I respec'd to be better at Molten Core because that is
>what my guild is doing a lot of recently. We can always respec to
>something else when the situation changes.

1. Improved Sap is not 100% chance.
2. There's no other talents I want leading up to it so I'd lose 13 points
on a taletnt that isn't guaranteed.
3. I *like* my own setup which is ideal for all purposes, not only 5-man
groups; which is the only time it would ever be used.
4. I don't plan to do a lot of grouping; I hate pickup groups. Why do you
think I want solo/duo instances?

>Try doing instances that are lower level then you as solo or duo. If
>you are high enough above the instance I would imagine it to be doable.
>The level cap at 60 will probably keep you from ever doing Scholomance
>with two people, but that might not even be true after the expansion
>comes out. Even though the BOE equipment is probably worthless to your
>character it could be really nice for an alt or you can just sell it on
>the Auction House and get rich.

Yes, but it's boring doing things without a reward. Sure you can do it
once, for fun, but after that there's no reason.

>So you had fun soloing the Stockades and you then also claim that there
>are no instances to solo? Do you see where that doesn't make sense?

You're deliberately not getting the point.

>I
>think what you really want is a soloable instance for your level.

Correct. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

>Well,
>Blizzard made the world outside of instances for soloing or group, so
>that is where they see you doing the majority of your soloing and
>leveling.

Of course, and why can't there be solo instances as well? You know, it'd be
fun to have a challenge that you have to do alone, and can't just bring
someone else in to help with, like you can outside or in any existing
instance.

>If Wailing Caverns is no fun for your 60 then move up to the next
>instance. Try soloing Scarlet Monastery. With 4 wings to try I would
>guess there is several hours of instance to try out there.

Done it, boring. There's just no point in soloing something when you can't
use anything you'd get from it. Ooh, I can get an item aimed at someone 20
levels below myself, probably not for my class, and bop so I can't sell it
for more than the (low) vendor price. Yawn.

The whole reason I enjoyed Stockades solo was because it was aimed at my
level (or just about my lvl - the mobs were all green). It sucks that
there's no item drops in it, but today I completed the other half of it,
killed Bazil Thredd and finished the quest chain which gave me a very nice
blue ring. Now a few similar things would be great. If not whole new
instances, then level-appropriate rewards for finishing a lower-level
instance solo. Give me a good-quality blue lvl 60 item for soloing bosses
in SM and it'd be a start.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 42)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)

Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM@totalise.co.uk> writes:
>Rogues sapping is useless; it needs perfect timing and even with the
>talents still has a chance to fail and aggro everything around (plus more
>often than not it breaks a *lot* earlier than it should), so our only real

It's one of the most useful solo skills a rogue has, and in groups without
a mage, it's very valuable. Improved sap is a great thing.

Once you're raiding it becomes a lot less significant, sure. But my rogue
alt is going to be heavy subtlety for a long time - it's incredible amounts
of fun.

>1. Improved Sap is not 100% chance.

Full points it's 90%. If you don't step on someone's toe, you will almost
always succeed, and if you don't, you vanish (which is fine, because you're
the only person in combat) and try it again. If you have Preparation, you
can even try it a THIRD time.

>2. There's no other talents I want leading up to it so I'd lose 13 points
>on a taletnt that isn't guaranteed.

I don't remember the other skills higher in the tree, but I had no problem
picking them. The one that adds effective levels to your stealth is very
nice - at 36 I can wander around 40s without much worry, which is great for
herb picking.

>4. I don't plan to do a lot of grouping; I hate pickup groups. Why do you
>think I want solo/duo instances?

As noted, sap is VERY useful for a soloer. You can easily take out groups
of three by sapping one and popping evasion - I do it all the time. Lots of
stuns to let your energy fill back up is critical too, so improve those.

>Done it, boring. There's just no point in soloing something when you can't
>use anything you'd get from it. Ooh, I can get an item aimed at someone 20
>levels below myself, probably not for my class, and bop so I can't sell it
>for more than the (low) vendor price. Yawn.

Well, part of the reason is precisely to get cash so you can afford to buy
better equipment. Rogues are VERY gear dependent. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:20:07 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:

>Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM@totalise.co.uk> writes:
>>Rogues sapping is useless; it needs perfect timing and even with the
>>talents still has a chance to fail and aggro everything around (plus more
>>often than not it breaks a *lot* earlier than it should), so our only real
>
>It's one of the most useful solo skills a rogue has, and in groups without
>a mage, it's very valuable. Improved sap is a great thing.

Not really, it breaks so easily, and the rest of the group is rarely awake
enough to prent the rogue getting killed.

>Once you're raiding it becomes a lot less significant, sure. But my rogue
>alt is going to be heavy subtlety for a long time - it's incredible amounts
>of fun.

Different people like different things - all the subtlety talents are
useless to me; I'm all about damage :-)

>>1. Improved Sap is not 100% chance.
>
>Full points it's 90%. If you don't step on someone's toe, you will almost
>always succeed, and if you don't, you vanish (which is fine, because you're
>the only person in combat) and try it again. If you have Preparation, you
>can even try it a THIRD time.

1 in 10 chance of failure. Not very good imho. Vanish should not be needed
to fill a gap in a skill.

>>2. There's no other talents I want leading up to it so I'd lose 13 points
>>on a taletnt that isn't guaranteed.
>
>I don't remember the other skills higher in the tree, but I had no problem
>picking them. The one that adds effective levels to your stealth is very
>nice - at 36 I can wander around 40s without much worry, which is great for
>herb picking.

Ahh, you're only mid-30s? Yeah, improved stealth level is great then, I had
it maxed while levelling myself. You'll find at 60 that it's not needed
though. It's rare you meet anything higher level than yourself, and when
you do you can use other stealth improvements anyway - I carry a pair of
Nightscape boots that improve my stealth level.

>>4. I don't plan to do a lot of grouping; I hate pickup groups. Why do you
>>think I want solo/duo instances?
>
>As noted, sap is VERY useful for a soloer. You can easily take out groups
>of three by sapping one and popping evasion - I do it all the time. Lots of
>stuns to let your energy fill back up is critical too, so improve those.

Can do that without improved sap; I do it regularly. So no, the talent is
not useful.

>>Done it, boring. There's just no point in soloing something when you can't
>>use anything you'd get from it. Ooh, I can get an item aimed at someone 20
>>levels below myself, probably not for my class, and bop so I can't sell it
>>for more than the (low) vendor price. Yawn.
>
>Well, part of the reason is precisely to get cash so you can afford to buy
>better equipment. Rogues are VERY gear dependent.

I'm well aware of the gear dependency; I've played a rogue for a long time
now. Just try buying better equipment at lvl 60. You can't, plain and
simple - I have the very best equipment available without raiding :-(
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 42)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)

>On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:47:47 +1000, "Chingy" <NoDamn@britney.com> wrote:
>
>>Hmm I would love to have 1 men instance where you could get some good items
>>and quests completed they could reset it every week or so or every
>>fortnight, any thought or idea on this.
>>
>>Cos I am sick of trying to get groups for instances like
>>uldaman,RFK,RFDcaverns,gnomer its very hard to get a group
>>going(Bronzebeard) so why can't blizz make some instances which is based on
>>1-2 players game play style eg mix monster with few elites not all elites
>>like regular instance.
>>
>>What do you all think ..

I'm all for the idea, and it's not like it hasn't been done already by
another MMORPG. Anyone else play Dark Age of Camelot: Catacombs?
There are instanced dungeons there (sure, not your WoW-type Scholo or
Strat or any real large dungeon), that, IIRC (having been away playing
WoW for over a year) would scale to the group size.

I don't expect Blizzard to try to create massive dungeons for only 1
or 2 players, but why not have an instanced dungeon in this way? There
needn't even been huge bosses in there. Stock it with elites and let
the party have at it.

Drops could be done in a number of ways I suppose. Have the same drop
table as other elites, or as someone suggested earlier a new set lower
than those rewarded for the large group dungeons, or (the one I
personally like) have players get tokens as a reward for killing X
number of <fillinthemob> in the dungeon.

Players are already turning in tickets for Darkmoon Faire, and turning
in items for reputation in PvP, so why not have casual players be able
to collect these tokens from the instanced dungeons and turn them in
for the new set?

I'd expect the grinding to be at least as long as the grind for rep or
Darkmoon Faire trinkets, but at least those players who don't have a
lot of time, or who for reasons of their own don't want to join a
large guild could still see progress of sorts after hitting 60/70. (My
guild is 3 family members and a friend. I don't want to leave them for
a game item, or get swallowed by a larger guild.)

I'm not standing here demanding this, by any means. I'm just saying I
think this could be done, and with Blizzard refining it I think it'd
work just fine.

Don
--
Tansi, 60 Orc Hunter, Bronzebeard
Tiomi, 60 Tauren Shaman, Bronzebeard
Eseer, 54 Troll Mage, Bronzebeard
Numerous others < 40, Bronzebeard, Moonrunner