The nice thing about battlegrounds is that they take place in a BG server,
allowing players from multiple realms to compete together. With a much larger
pool of available players, it takes less time to get together a group for a
BG than if all the players had to come from the same server.

So why not do this with dungeon instances? There are nights when it is
*impossible* to put together a party for an instance. Other nights you have a
party and a single member disconnects, and you have to spend an hour trying
to beg someone to join you to complete the instance. And then there's the
revolving-door PUG, where people join and wait about 10 minutes, then leave
because the group still doesn't have enough players (at which point the next
guy joins and waits about 10 minutes...)

The obvious problem I think is with trade. I've never tried it, but I assume
trade is disabled in BGs. If players with multiple realms were allowed to
trade items, then scams would emerge to defraud the economy of one realm in
favor of another (I can see "Kramer" and "Newman" loading up their inventory
with stacks and stacks of linen cloth purchased from Fenris to sell on
Cenarion or some such thing). But there's got to be some solution to that
problem...

The other problem is that many instance portals are buried inside of the
dungeon somewhere, requiring you to have a party before you get to the
instance portal to clear the outside content. Personally I think that's
simply dumb. It adds unnecessary complexity to corpse running ("help I'm lost
and can't find the portal!"), and unnecessary complexity to summoning new
members. Blizz should fix that.

As pointed out in the 'Death of Dire Maul' thread, there's some instances
that you can't even run anymore because there simply aren't enough players to
play it.

Back when I wanted the discombobulator ray recipe, I spent weeks trying to
put a party together for gnomer. Eventually I leveled high enough that I was
able to buy the workshop key and solo the schematic myself. [and yes I know
gnomer in particular is one of those dungeons that people hate]

SM was another instance that was almost impossible to get a party together
for because Blizz didn't put a friggin' alliance flight path anywhere near
it.

Strangely it has seemed to get easier to put parties together for some of the
middle instances (Uldaman, ZF, ST, Maraudon, BRD), so maybe things are
improving -- at least until I get a bit higher and players get divided
between Outland and Azeroth.

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kerri@spamsucks.com wrote:
> The nice thing about battlegrounds is that they take place in a BG server,
> allowing players from multiple realms to compete together. With a much larger
> pool of available players, it takes less time to get together a group for a
> BG than if all the players had to come from the same server.
>
> So why not do this with dungeon instances? There are nights when it is
> *impossible* to put together a party for an instance. Other nights you have a
> party and a single member disconnects, and you have to spend an hour trying
> to beg someone to join you to complete the instance. And then there's the
> revolving-door PUG, where people join and wait about 10 minutes, then leave
> because the group still doesn't have enough players (at which point the next
> guy joins and waits about 10 minutes...)

While this isn't a bad idea, there are some caveats.
a) What makes you think there are more tanks/healer on other servers?
b) the server-local looking for group tool isn't used by anyone because
most people don't know about it or find it clumsy. This would require a
"global" LFG tool (probably battlegroup-local); I doubt Blizz could
create a workable user interface.

> The obvious problem I think is with trade. I've never tried it, but I assume
> trade is disabled in BGs. If players with multiple realms were allowed to
> trade items, then scams would emerge to defraud the economy of one realm in
> favor of another (I can see "Kramer" and "Newman" loading up their inventory
> with stacks and stacks of linen cloth purchased from Fenris to sell on
> Cenarion or some such thing). But there's got to be some solution to that
> problem...

trading of anything except conjured items (water, food, health stones)
is disabled in Battlegrounds atm.

> The other problem is that many instance portals are buried inside of the
> dungeon somewhere, requiring you to have a party before you get to the
> instance portal to clear the outside content. Personally I think that's
> simply dumb. It adds unnecessary complexity to corpse running ("help I'm lost
> and can't find the portal!"), and unnecessary complexity to summoning new
> members. Blizz should fix that.

While I admit that some instances are a pain to find, most are pretty
easy to find and all the new instances are more or less free.
And actually the problem is mostly not the instance entrance, but rather
the summoning stone. You shouldn't have to do single corpse runs often.

> As pointed out in the 'Death of Dire Maul' thread, there's some instances
> that you can't even run anymore because there simply aren't enough players to
> play it.

many of the low level instances get some changes with the next patch,
there should be renewed interest in many of them I'd say.

Urs

--
Manotroth@Kargath EU - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Axesmith
Blackhorns@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Shadowblack@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Hunter 40 - Leather & Alchemist
Ratoma@Dun Morogh EU - Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony@Scarshield Legion EU - Human Mage 16
Blackhorns@Sunstrider EU - Tauren Druid 30
Kickaha@Perenolde EU - NElf Hunter 35
and various others

I think it was Urs Steiner <invalid@darkstone.ch> that wrote something
like...

>
>> The other problem is that many instance portals are buried inside of the
>> dungeon somewhere, requiring you to have a party before you get to the
>> instance portal to clear the outside content. Personally I think that's
>> simply dumb. It adds unnecessary complexity to corpse running ("help I'm lost
>> and can't find the portal!"), and unnecessary complexity to summoning new
>> members. Blizz should fix that.
>
>While I admit that some instances are a pain to find, most are pretty
>easy to find and all the new instances are more or less free.
>And actually the problem is mostly not the instance entrance, but rather
>the summoning stone. You shouldn't have to do single corpse runs often.

One change I thought of after hearing complaints about corpse runs, is
making the summoning stone also work as a spirit healer/graveyard
thingy for when you die in an instance associated with it. That would
still leave a bit of a run for Blood Furnace but it'd be sweet for the
coilfang instances.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

On Oct 16, 3:12 am, Urs Steiner <inva...@darkstone.ch> wrote:
> ke...@spamsucks.com wrote:
> > The nice thing about battlegrounds is that they take place in a BG server,
> > allowing players from multiple realms to compete together. With a much larger
> > pool of available players, it takes less time to get together a group for a
> > BG than if all the players had to come from the same server.
>
> > So why not do this with dungeon instances? There are nights when it is
> > *impossible* to put together a party for an instance. Other nights you have a
> > party and a single member disconnects, and you have to spend an hour trying
> > to beg someone to join you to complete the instance. And then there's the
> > revolving-door PUG, where people join and wait about 10 minutes, then leave
> > because the group still doesn't have enough players (at which point the next
> > guy joins and waits about 10 minutes...)
>
> While this isn't a bad idea, there are some caveats.
> a) What makes you think there are more tanks/healer on other servers?
> b) the server-local looking for group tool isn't used by anyone because
> most people don't know about it or find it clumsy. This would require a
> "global" LFG tool (probably battlegroup-local); I doubt Blizz could
> create a workable user interface.
>
> > The obvious problem I think is with trade. I've never tried it, but I assume
> > trade is disabled in BGs. If players with multiple realms were allowed to
> > trade items, then scams would emerge to defraud the economy of one realm in
> > favor of another (I can see "Kramer" and "Newman" loading up their inventory
> > with stacks and stacks of linen cloth purchased from Fenris to sell on
> > Cenarion or some such thing). But there's got to be some solution to that
> > problem...
>
> trading of anything except conjured items (water, food, health stones)
> is disabled in Battlegrounds atm.
>
> > The other problem is that many instance portals are buried inside of the
> > dungeon somewhere, requiring you to have a party before you get to the
> > instance portal to clear the outside content. Personally I think that's
> > simply dumb. It adds unnecessary complexity to corpse running ("help I'm lost
> > and can't find the portal!"), and unnecessary complexity to summoning new
> > members. Blizz should fix that.
>
> While I admit that some instances are a pain to find, most are pretty
> easy to find and all the new instances are more or less free.
> And actually the problem is mostly not the instance entrance, but rather
> the summoning stone. You shouldn't have to do single corpse runs often.
>
> > As pointed out in the 'Death of Dire Maul' thread, there's some instances
> > that you can't even run anymore because there simply aren't enough players to
> > play it.
>
> many of the low level instances get some changes with the next patch,
> there should be renewed interest in many of them I'd say.
>
> Urs
>
> --
> Manotroth@Kargath EU - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Axesmith
> Blackhorns@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
> Shadowblack@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Hunter 40 - Leather & Alchemist
> Ratoma@Dun Morogh EU - Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
> Melony@Scarshield Legion EU - Human Mage 16
> Blackhorns@Sunstrider EU - Tauren Druid 30
> Kickaha@Perenolde EU - NElf Hunter 35
> and various others

What they really need to do is to provide more of an incentive for
taking on a tank role. Druids have no problem playing tanks because a
simple gear and form shift and they can go out and solo DPS. Paladin
tanks can typically AoE grind. But prot warriors get shafted. They
go prot and they have to spend 5 minutes killing 1 mob, factor in
assholes like me on PvP servers who see something like this going on
and cast curse of weakness on the warrior and you have a long fight
ahead of you. While druid tanks are abundant (in the sense that when
looking for a tank you're most likely to find a druid), paladins
typically spec to heal, and only warriors who want to group for 5-mans
and raids are speccing prot.

They need to give prot warriors something that lets them stay viable
while soloing while staying prot specced. Perhaps there needs to be a
prot warrior only weapon, a 2-hander so they wouldn't be able to use
it with a shield (i.e. when they are tanking), some high DPS weapon
they can use to keep up in the soloing game without having to respec.

I hope death knights will help solve the problem of finding a tank,
but I suspect (considering all the ret pallies out there) that
whenever I find a death knight, they're going to be specced for DPS.
I really hope more people take the opportunity to level a death knight
and spec for tanking. At least, if I do roll a death knight, which I
probably will, at some point I will be specced for tanking.

And hopefully the changes to healing gear coming up in 2.3 will
encourage more people to go the healing route.

Hi

lcpltom wrote:
> On Oct 16, 3:12 am, Urs Steiner <inva...@darkstone.ch> wrote:
>> ke...@spamsucks.com wrote:
>>> The nice thing about battlegrounds is that they take place in a BG server,
>>> allowing players from multiple realms to compete together. With a much larger
>>> pool of available players, it takes less time to get together a group for a
>>> BG than if all the players had to come from the same server.
>>> So why not do this with dungeon instances? There are nights when it is
>>> *impossible* to put together a party for an instance. Other nights you have a
>>> party and a single member disconnects, and you have to spend an hour trying
>>> to beg someone to join you to complete the instance. And then there's the
>>> revolving-door PUG, where people join and wait about 10 minutes, then leave
>>> because the group still doesn't have enough players (at which point the next
>>> guy joins and waits about 10 minutes...)
>> While this isn't a bad idea, there are some caveats.
>> a) What makes you think there are more tanks/healer on other servers?
>> b) the server-local looking for group tool isn't used by anyone because
>> most people don't know about it or find it clumsy. This would require a
>> "global" LFG tool (probably battlegroup-local); I doubt Blizz could
>> create a workable user interface.

> What they really need to do is to provide more of an incentive for
> taking on a tank role. Druids have no problem playing tanks because a
> simple gear and form shift and they can go out and solo DPS. Paladin
> tanks can typically AoE grind. But prot warriors get shafted. They
> go prot and they have to spend 5 minutes killing 1 mob, factor in
> assholes like me on PvP servers who see something like this going on
> and cast curse of weakness on the warrior and you have a long fight
> ahead of you. While druid tanks are abundant (in the sense that when
> looking for a tank you're most likely to find a druid), paladins
> typically spec to heal, and only warriors who want to group for 5-mans
> and raids are speccing prot.

> They need to give prot warriors something that lets them stay viable
> while soloing while staying prot specced. Perhaps there needs to be a
> prot warrior only weapon, a 2-hander so they wouldn't be able to use
> it with a shield (i.e. when they are tanking), some high DPS weapon
> they can use to keep up in the soloing game without having to respec.

not actually possible with items as there's probably no sane way to
define "this is tank-spec" while keeping at least some disparity of
specs alive. and if it only requires 21 points or so in prot, anybody
could get it.

Anyway, some of the changes in 2.3 seem to be a step in the direction of
improving soloability of deff tanks I heard (or at least they might be
seen as a step in this direction). Haven't heard anything if it really
works out that way, though.

> I hope death knights will help solve the problem of finding a tank,
> but I suspect (considering all the ret pallies out there) that
> whenever I find a death knight, they're going to be specced for DPS.
> I really hope more people take the opportunity to level a death knight
> and spec for tanking. At least, if I do roll a death knight, which I
> probably will, at some point I will be specced for tanking.
>
> And hopefully the changes to healing gear coming up in 2.3 will
> encourage more people to go the healing route.

I seriously doubt it will increase the amount of healers available.
Don't forget that spec increases many things more than the spell damage
alone. I.e. I have also a caster outfit for my resto shaman with about
~650 spell damage (mainly used for Leotheras to kill my inner demon),
but it's not as if doing damage with this outfit is really fun. My LBs
take longer to cast than those of an ele shaman, they don't get bonus
damage on it from talents (well, ok, my LBs do get some bonus damage
because of my offspec, but you know what I mean), etc.
This change simply makes some stuff easier (like the Leo fight
mentioned: I will probably not need a separate outfit for this fight but
can just swap in a weapon with + spell damage if I get a demon). Or
doing a bit of damage while no one is taking damage in order to get a
mob down faster.
But going around solo killing monsters will not be easier really,
because the about 500-600 spelldamage I will get from the healing stuff
can easily be reached with other items, which will also increase other
non-healer stats like spell crit spell hit, spell pen, etc.


Urs

--
Manotroth@Kargath EU - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Axesmith
Blackhorns@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Shadowblack@Dun Morogh EU - Tauren Hunter 40 - Leather & Alchemist
Ratoma@Dun Morogh EU - Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony@Scarshield Legion EU - Human Mage 16
Blackhorns@Sunstrider EU - Tauren Druid 30
Kickaha@Perenolde EU - NElf Hunter 35
and various others