I have looked at several new rogue builds last few days and I really cant
decide on a build atm.
I'ts apparent that the time of daggers has come once again. I looked at deep
assasination and deep sub builds.
The hard part is to pick between the new mutilate that doesnt require you to
face the target and making it a very good levelling build or going for the
45 energy ambush/backstabs. I must say I have noticed that maces + hemo has
a lack of crit and burst a bit (specially in pvp with a lot of resilience)
and it's a problem that daggers could solve since they have talents to
increase crit a lot.
Has anyone played with the new rogue talents yet?

On 29 Sep, 13:02, "Shammy" <n...@nothing.com> wrote:

> I have looked at several new rogue builds last few days and I really cant
> decide on a build atm.

My build is going to stay as Subtlety. I don't have any good daggers
so I'm going to stick with my S2 maces until I get better daggers at
which point I'll switch to mutilate spec to try that.

I'm not sure that I can be bothered to grind the honour to get the S2
daggers for levelling when I may not even like them if I did. I only
need about 15k honour though so maybe I should.


> I'ts apparent that the time of daggers has come once again. I looked at deep
> assasination and deep sub builds.

It does seem like Blizzard are giving daggers a big push with this
patch.


> The hard part is to pick between the new mutilate that doesnt require you to
> face the target and making it a very good levelling build or going for the
> 45 energy ambush/backstabs.

I assume that you meant to say "doesnt require you to face the
target's back". :P


> I must say I have noticed that maces + hemo has
> a lack of crit and burst a bit (specially in pvp with a lot of resilience)
> and it's a problem that daggers could solve since they have talents to
> increase crit a lot.

Yeah, I suffered from that problem a lot at the start but I'd say that
most of my targets are lesser geared than me now so it's less of a
problem (excluding Arena)


> Has anyone played with the new rogue talents yet?

I was going to but the character copy queues put me off.

steve.kaye

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:02:38 +0200, "Shammy" <none@nothing.com> wrote:

>I have looked at several new rogue builds last few days and I really cant
>decide on a build atm.
>I'ts apparent that the time of daggers has come once again. I looked at deep
>assasination and deep sub builds.
>The hard part is to pick between the new mutilate that doesnt require you to
>face the target and making it a very good levelling build or going for the
>45 energy ambush/backstabs. I must say I have noticed that maces + hemo has
>a lack of crit and burst a bit (specially in pvp with a lot of resilience)
>and it's a problem that daggers could solve since they have talents to
>increase crit a lot.
>Has anyone played with the new rogue talents yet?
>

After the patch but before the expansion comes out, I'll play around
with a 54/0/7 mut build, mainly to get a feel for the new
assassination talents. Or at least that was the plan, other than a
weekly dungeon group with friends, I find myself logging into WAR not
WoW these days. That will probably change some when the expansion
comes out, though.

My leveling build for the expansion will probably be a mut/prep build
(41/0/21).

Rgds, Frank

Hello, steve.kaye!
You wrote on Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:02:04 -0700 (PDT):

??>> I have looked at several new rogue builds last few days and I really
??>> cant decide on a build atm.

sk> My build is going to stay as Subtlety. I don't have any good daggers
sk> so I'm going to stick with my S2 maces until I get better daggers at
sk> which point I'll switch to mutilate spec to try that.

sk> I'm not sure that I can be bothered to grind the honour to get the S2
sk> daggers for levelling when I may not even like them if I did. I only
sk> need about 15k honour though so maybe I should.

I had too much honor so I bought the 2 slow daggers for mutilate I might try
that.
Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
specialisation ?

??>> I'ts apparent that the time of daggers has come once again. I looked
??>> at deep assasination and deep sub builds.

sk> It does seem like Blizzard are giving daggers a big push with this
sk> patch.

??>> The hard part is to pick between the new mutilate that doesnt require
??>> you to face the target and making it a very good levelling build or
??>> going for the 45 energy ambush/backstabs.

sk> I assume that you meant to say "doesnt require you to face the
sk> target's back". :P

Yes right, I ment you dont have to face the target's back

sk> Yeah, I suffered from that problem a lot at the start but I'd say that
sk> most of my targets are lesser geared than me now so it's less of a
sk> problem (excluding Arena)

I still have big problems with healers with anything from S2 and up and
that's on the rogue, my mage cant kill any healer atm or come even close,
seems mages get buffed a lot in patch

On 29 Sep, 23:03, "Shammy" <n...@nothing.com> wrote:
> Hello, steve.kaye!
> You wrote *on Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:02:04 -0700 (PDT):
>
> *??>> I have looked at several new rogue builds last few days and I really
> *??>> cant decide on a build atm.
>
> *sk> My build is going to stay as Subtlety. *I don't have any good daggers
> *sk> so I'm going to stick with my S2 maces until I get better daggers at
> *sk> which point I'll switch to mutilate spec to try that.
>
> *sk> I'm not sure that I can be bothered to grind the honour to get theS2
> *sk> daggers for levelling when I may not even like them if I did. *Ionly
> *sk> need about 15k honour though so maybe I should.
>
> I had too much honor so I bought the 2 slow daggers for mutilate I might try
> that.

I thought about this some more last night - the biggest reason why I
won't try daggers until I replace my S2 maces is that my maces both
have Mongoose and I won't pay for Mongoose on levelling weapons.


> Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
> specialisation ?

No idea, sorry. I only tried mutilate for a short time and it was an
Assasination / Subt build.


> *sk> Yeah, I suffered from that problem a lot at the start but I'd say that
> *sk> most of my targets are lesser geared than me now so it's less of a
> *sk> problem *(excluding Arena)
>
> I still have big problems with healers with anything from S2 and up and
> that's on the rogue, my mage cant kill any healer atm or come even close,
> seems mages get buffed a lot in patch

I think that you have better gear than I do and so I'll struggle on
the same healers that you do. It's just that there are more healers
around with lower quality gear than I have than there were when I
first dinged 70. I still see priests in the Primal Mooncloth gear -
they go down very quickly.

steve.kaye

sk> I thought about this some more last night - the biggest reason why I
sk> won't try daggers until I replace my S2 maces is that my maces both
sk> have Mongoose and I won't pay for Mongoose on levelling weapons.

I also have the problem of double mongoose on my maces but if daggers are so
much better now than maybe it's worth changing even to non mongoose daggers.

>> Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
>> specialisation ?

sk> No idea, sorry. I only tried mutilate for a short time and it was
sk> an
sk> Assasination / Subt build.

I was asking only because now DW spec is in the first tier of combat talents
and you can take only that from combat.


>> sk> Yeah, I suffered from that problem a lot at the start but I'd say
>> that sk> most of my targets are lesser geared than me now so it's
>> less of a sk> problem (excluding Arena)

>> I still have big problems with healers with anything from S2 and up
>> and that's on the rogue, my mage cant kill any healer atm or come even
>> close, seems mages get buffed a lot in patch

sk> I think that you have better gear than I do and so I'll struggle on
sk> the same healers that you do. It's just that there are more healers
sk> around with lower quality gear than I have than there were when I
sk> first dinged 70. I still see priests in the Primal Mooncloth gear -
sk> they go down very quickly.

I can also kill some priests with bad gear but there are more better geared
healers around from what I can see and those are almost impossible to solo
for me :S I feel often that I need some kind of burst. The new mutilate
build has a nice talent to put crippling automaticly when you poison the
target so I was thinking about using wound + mind numbing with mutilate
would be a good option for dealing with healers.
1 day I was riding through STV on my druid after just getting S2 gear and a
full S3 rogue attacked me, he used all CD he had good poisons and after a 4
min fight I won.. all he needed was some burst that he couldnt get with ShS
build (and I really love this build and I'm using it for months now)

btw if you want to check my rogue it's Rustic from Jaedenar EU

On 30 Sep, 10:50, "Shammy" <n...@nothing.com> wrote:
> sk> I thought about this some more last night - the biggest reason why I
> sk> won't try daggers until I replace my S2 maces is that my maces both
> sk> have Mongoose and I won't pay for Mongoose on levelling weapons.
>
> I also have the problem of double mongoose on my maces but if daggers areso
> much better now than maybe it's worth changing even to non mongoose daggers.

I'd be very surprised if the buffs to daggers outweigh the mongoose
enchants.


> >> Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
> >> specialisation ?
>
> sk> No idea, sorry. *I only tried mutilate for a short time and it was
> sk> an
> sk> Assasination / Subt build.
>
> I was asking only because now DW spec is in the first tier of combat talents
> and you can take only that from combat.

> >> *sk> Yeah, I suffered from that problem a lot at the start but I'd say
> >> that *sk> most of my targets are lesser geared than me now so it's
> >> less of a *sk> problem *(excluding Arena)
> >> I still have big problems with healers with anything from S2 and up
> >> and that's on the rogue, my mage cant kill any healer atm or come even
> >> close, seems mages get buffed a lot in patch
>
> sk> I think that you have better gear than I do and so I'll struggle on
> sk> the same healers that you do. *It's just that there are more healers
> sk> around with lower quality gear than I have than there were when I
> sk> first dinged 70. *I still see priests in the Primal Mooncloth gear -
> sk> they go down very quickly. *
>
> I can also kill some priests with bad gear but there are more better geared
> healers around from what I can see and those are almost impossible to solo
> for me :S I feel often that I need some kind of burst.

Yes, me too - I even tried a mutilate build but I still couldn't kill
healers and I then couldn't kill lots of classes that I used to be
able to. Other than healers, there was no class that I thought that I
had no chance against with a ShS build - there were just classes that
were more difficult. I'd pretty much limited myself to Warlocks with
the Mutilate build. :P This was all before I'd even got the S2
weapons though and I've not tried since as it would require another
set of S2 weapons to have a fair comparason.


> The new mutilate
> build has a nice talent to put crippling automaticly when you poison the
> target so I was thinking about using wound + mind numbing with mutilate
> would be a good option for dealing with healers.

Yes, I saw that. It would be a pain for paladins and shamans (I think
that neither have any good instant heals) to have all three poisons on
them. The stacking of wound poison and the dispel resist talent would
also make their cure poison effects much less effective.


> 1 day I was riding through STV on my druid after just getting S2 gear anda
> full S3 rogue attacked me, he used all CD he had good poisons and after a4
> min fight I won.. all he needed was some burst that he couldnt get with ShS
> build (and I really love this build *and I'm using it for months now)

Yes, I think that you need a big gear difference as a ShS rogue to
beat healers. I generally always PvP with another rogue friend who is
on Teamspeak and so we usually go for them 2v1.

steve.kaye

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:03:53 +0200, "Shammy" <none@nothing.com> wrote:

>I had too much honor so I bought the 2 slow daggers for mutilate I might try
>that.
>Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
>specialisation ?

It does.

>> I also have the problem of double mongoose on my maces but if daggers
>> are so much better now than maybe it's worth changing even to non
>> mongoose daggers.

sk> I'd be very surprised if the buffs to daggers outweigh the mongoose
sk> enchants.

I'd be surprised if they didnt You can count on 1 mongoose to be active
(2 is great but you cant count on it at all) that 1 mongoose will give you
around 3,5% crit and 120 AP.

>> >> Any idea if the offhand mutilate attack gets benefit from dual weld
>> >> specialisation ?

>> sk> No idea, sorry. I only tried mutilate for a short time and it was
>> sk> an sk> Assasination / Subt build.

>> I was asking only because now DW spec is in the first tier of combat
>> talents and you can take only that from combat.

sk> Yes, me too - I even tried a mutilate build but I still couldn't
sk> kill healers and I then couldn't kill lots of classes that I used to
sk> be able to. Other than healers, there was no class that I thought
sk> that I had no chance against with a ShS build - there were just
sk> classes that were more difficult. I'd pretty much limited myself to
sk> Warlocks with the Mutilate build. :P This was all before I'd even
sk> got the S2 weapons though and I've not tried since as it would
sk> require another set of S2 weapons to have a fair comparason.

We cant compare the results we had before good gear and weapons to what they
would be now. I tried mutilate with blue/green gear and a blue dagger with
green offhand and it sucked but then at that time every build sucked cause I
just had bad gear. There was no way I could kill a mob my lvl then before
stun is off. I also had 18% crit and 1000 AP at the time and now I have 33%
crit and 1800+ AP.

>> The new mutilate build has a nice talent to put crippling automaticly
>> when you poison the target so I was thinking about using wound + mind
>> numbing with mutilate would be a good option for dealing with healers.

sk> Yes, I saw that. It would be a pain for paladins and shamans (I
sk> think that neither have any good instant heals) to have all three
sk> poisons on them. The stacking of wound poison and the dispel resist
sk> talent would also make their cure poison effects much less
sk> effective.

Shammys can be a real pain with that talent to give HP back when hit under
30% (something like that) so with earth shield + that I just cant get them
low enough if good geared while they still have spell power to kill me
slowly and pallys have so much armor that they can kill me with holy shock
and heal themselves, I priests have too many instants and heal themselves
all the time and druids I covered already. I'm talking about people that
have same or better gear than me, everyone can kill some greenie

>> 1 day I was riding through STV on my druid after just getting S2 gear
>> and a full S3 rogue attacked me, he used all CD he had good poisons
>> and after a 4 min fight I won.. all he needed was some burst that he
>> couldnt get with ShS build (and I really love this build and I'm
>> using it for months now)

sk> Yes, I think that you need a big gear difference as a ShS rogue to
sk> beat healers. I generally always PvP with another rogue friend who
sk> is on Teamspeak and so we usually go for them 2v1.

I immagine you have big problems vs pally teams, you try kill the pally he
bubbles and his other dps kills you.

On 30 Sep, 12:30, "Shammy" <n...@nothing.com> wrote:

> sk> Yes, I think that you need a big gear difference as a ShS rogue to
> sk> beat healers. *I generally always PvP with another rogue friend who
> sk> is on Teamspeak and so we usually go for them 2v1.
>
> I immagine you have big problems vs pally teams, you try kill the pally he
> bubbles and his other dps kills you.

I wasn't talking about arena. I was just talking about going for the
healers in BGs. In arena, the plan is to CC the healer for as long as
possible and try to kill the DPS first.

steve.kaye

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:30:43 -0700 (PDT), "steve.kaye"
<nospam@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:

>Yes, me too - I even tried a mutilate build but I still couldn't kill
>healers and I then couldn't kill lots of classes that I used to be
>able to.

Strange. I might not kill every healer in Arena as a mut build but I'd
say that I can take out 70% of them in under 30 seconds if their
partner leaves me alone. It might have been a gear issue, mut feeds
off of crits and if you're only running around 20% base, it doesn't
work all that well. You should also gem/enchant for root and snare
resists since you don't have prep and shadowstep to fall back and you
don't need a run speed enchant or meta.

The other thing is that the play style takes some getting used to. The
'standard' attack against someone not in plate is:
cheap shot -> mutilate -> imp expose armor
...... wait for energy to regen back to full ...
kidney shot -> (Cold Blood) Mulitlate -> 4 point evis -> mutilate ->

If that goes according to play (KS wasn't resisted/trinketed), you end
your KS stun having done 6-8k of damage and you have 2-4 combo points
on the target.

My nemesis at Mut were warriors, ice mages and shadowstep rogues,
everyone else I felt that I had an advantage against.

Rgds, Frank

On 30 Sep, 12:50, Frank E <fakeaddr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:30:43 -0700 (PDT), "steve.kaye"
>
> <nos...@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> >Yes, me too - I even tried a mutilate build but I still couldn't kill
> >healers and I then couldn't kill lots of classes that I used to be
> >able to.
>
> Strange. I might not kill every healer in Arena as a mut build but I'd
> say that I can take out 70% of them in under 30 seconds if their
> partner leaves me alone. It might have been a gear issue, mut feeds
> off of crits and if you're only running around 20% base, it doesn't
> work all that well. *

I last tried it shortly after hitting 70. It was a few weeks before
S4 so I hadn't got the pvp weapons as I was waiting for S2 to be
available. I would have been in 4/5 opportunist with some (but not a
lot) of the accessories bought with honour. I also gemmed for
survivability rather than offensive (which I've been switching to
offensive gems as I gear up and get resilience and stamina from gear)

I think that I'll grind some honour to get the S2 daggers and try
mutilate when the patch comes. Do I need the slow main / fast
offhand? Or should I get the slow dagger for each hand? I guess that
a fast offhand isn't needed as much as your main attack hits with both
but I don't know.

steve.kaye