In <4c1bf453.7929046@News.Individual.NET> deathsabyss@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) writes:

> >Disc is good for raid heals, as long as you don't have a lot of people
> >taking a lot of damage all at once.

> Isn't Disc more of the main tank/off tank healer while you spec Holy
> to be the raid healer?

Disc is good at tank healing, although we can't touch Paladins.

It's actually a very good raid healing spec, for certain types of raid
damage. Spamming Power Word: Shield on everyone and filling in the holes
with Flash Heal is extremely effective if only a few people are taking
damage at a time.

If you need to heal up a lot of people all at once, that's better suited
for Circle of Healing or Chain Heal.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:36:25 -0700 (PDT), Mark (newsgroups) wrote:
> On Jun 16, 3:23 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 16 Jun 2010 13:49:57 GMT, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >Anyway, it was less of a problem with the Shammy and I have now progressed
> > >to level 65 which means I have been running Mana Tombs about 3 or 4 times
> > >and have just been to Auchenai Crypts twice.
> >
> > >And I have made a disturbing discovery. I run out of mana. People die. I
> > >suck at healing.
> >
> > I don't know enough about shamans to help directly, but I noted the
> > name "Mana Tombs" above... that is your problem :-P

I was aware of that, based on (I think it was) Orion's post of a few days
ago. Being mana drained and noticing too late was responsible for a few
deaths and two wipes but there were others, too.

> > Crypts has a lot of annoyances as well, mindcontrol, fears, which often
> > result in larger pulls than ideal.

That sums it up nicely :-)

> > If you have troubles in non-Auchindoun instances, then you may want to
> > look at what you're doing, but I'm suspecting if you were fine at lower
> > levels, it's more likely the instance than your healing to blame.

Thanks for the reassurance. I haven't had anyone dying or wipes prior to
Auchindon instances, so I guess the two instances and the way they are being
run today are partly to blame. However, going through mana faster than I
used to is something I already started noticing in Coilfang instances.

> > Obviously make sure you've got a suitable amount of regen on your
> > gear, if you can eke out some extra mp5 it's often worthwhile

More important than spell power? That is my big uncertainty at the moment.

> I concur with all of the above. It's been ages since I went there, but
> perhaps you could learn which mobs mana drain and set up a focus macro
> to interrupt their casts (I think that the drains have a cast time).

I've tried doing that but so far have not noticed anyone casting anything.
In some cases I stood away from any mob at max distance and suddently was
out of mana...

I know mana wyrms suck me dry and also explode for nice AoE damage, but I
suspect there is at least another mob who mana drains. Once a noticed some
kind of wraith spawning right in front of me and then my mana was gone...

Ah well, soon I'll outlevel these two instances

> Same goes for fears.

Fears I can handle, I got the fear-breaking heirloom trinket on both my tank
and healer.

> Anyway, since you're a shaman, you could do it yourself. Might help,
> might not, but worth a shot.

Yupp, if I see heals, mind controls/fears being cast I try to interrupt.
Mana draining I have yet to find out if it has a cast time...

Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (65), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:19 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
> In <slrni1hlk5.m24.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > Stats
> > 162 Spirit
>
> Why is your spirit so high?

For two reasons:
1. Some gear just comes with spirit :-)
2. I started giving +spirit preference on the last few drops as I seem to
need to drink too often...

> Shamans don't want spirit.

.... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
I regen in long fights?

> > I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
> > on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
>
> Low-level shamans want as much Int as they can get, for a larger mana pool.
> Don't worry about spellpower so much. Crit is good for getting Improved
> Water Shield procs.

Thanks. That's what I did for a while and then went for +SP instead. I'll
switch back to +int then (assuming 65 is still "low level"

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (65), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

I think it was Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> that wrote something
like...

>> I concur with all of the above. It's been ages since I went there, but
>> perhaps you could learn which mobs mana drain and set up a focus macro
>> to interrupt their casts (I think that the drains have a cast time).
>
>I've tried doing that but so far have not noticed anyone casting anything.
>In some cases I stood away from any mob at max distance and suddently was
>out of mana...
>
>I know mana wyrms suck me dry and also explode for nice AoE damage, but I
>suspect there is at least another mob who mana drains. Once a noticed some
>kind of wraith spawning right in front of me and then my mana was gone...

I forget which, but one of the ethereal mobs casts Mana Burn(? Same
name as the priest spell anyway)
That's the one to target and to be ready to wind shear.

But that's only in Mana Tombs. In Crypts there's nothing that drains
your mana especially.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

In <slrni1i5ed.5nu.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:

> ... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
> want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
> totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
> I regen in long fights?

Aside from cooldowns such as mana tide, most shaman regen comes from mp5
and Improved Water Shield procs. Make absolutely sure you always keep
Water Shield up on yourself; if you let it expire, your mana will suffer.

Mana tide totem will replace your mana stream totem, so be sure to re-drop
stream when tide is finished.

It also helps a ton if you're grouped with a DPSer who has Replenishment
such as a shadow priest or a ret paladin, but of course this is out of
your control.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:52:39 GMT, Ashen Shugar wrote:
> I think it was Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> that wrote something
> like...
>
> >
> >Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
> >
>
> I can't recall too well exactly how I went about healing on my Shammy
> through the TBC instances. Believe it was before the random dungeon
> finding, so may not have run that many. But here's how I heal on them
> now at 80.
>
> Earth Shield on the tank at all times. With a well geared tank in
> some of the heroics it can do almost all the healing.

After my post I reconfigured grid and clique. My next two instances were
Underbog and Crypts. In Underbog Earth Shield was enough to keep the tank
alive through the whole instance, I can see that I definitely want to keep
that up permanently (and grid now tells me whether it's on or not). In
Crypts I had to top the tank off in addition to earth shield but not by
much.

> Mana regen totem up whenever I remember to put the totems up.

Yupp, mana spring totem is my default water totem and I have mana tide totem
hotkeyed for single placement if I urgently need to regen.

> Mana shield on yourself to up your mana regen.

I assume you mean Water Shield? Yes, I have that on my smartbuff config,
though it is less useful while I don't get hit (which I usually don't in
instances).

> I tend to use Riptide a lot to proc the Tidal waves.

So far I used chain heal to proc it, haven't really grown into using Riptide
much yet, mostly because I don't yet know how much and how well it heals,
it's one of my next goals to learn more about it by using it more :-)

> Then with Healing wave now having a casting time of only about 1.5 seconds,
> I'll use it to heal whoever has taken enough damage that it's worth healing
> them.

So far it has been rare that anybody is taking that much damage. Except for
a few times when everyone takes so much damage :-)

> Generally that's not that many people, so with the waiting for
> people to take damage, riptide is often off cooldown by the time I've
> cast the two healing waves at the faster speed and so I'll use Riptide
> for the next person to take damage, then another two Healing Waves,
> riptide again,

Ok, I guess I will need to dare to wait longer before I heal. That would
probably also help me get out of the FSR more... On the other hand, I've had
quite a few tanks whete a full healing wave means they are practically dead
before I heal them :-) Though that is getting better quickly now that I have
entered Outland.

> Glyphed for Earth Shield to increase the healing it does

Thanks, I might take that when the last major glyph unlocks (instead of
riptide or chain heal as I had planned).

> This tends to work well enough in heroics. With about 2.3k bonus
> healing, chain heal, on it's initial target seems to heal about 55% as
> much as Healing wave while being something like 80% of it's mana cost,
> so doesn't seem worth it to me unless it's going to bounce to a few
> people. In a melee heavy group I may use it a bit more

I have found that I am often in groups with one or two melee chars in
addition to the tank so it's actually quite efficient. One run it was me and
four death knights :-)

> Shaman's seem to have the worst ways of regenning mana of all the
> healer classes. Their mana tide totem has a 5 minute cooldown and
> only looks to restore about 24% of their mana. (of course it restores
> other peoples mana too, but who cares about other people? Really! ;p)
> Other than that, the mana shield up's their mp5 but they need to be
> taking damage for it to really do them a lot of good, and that
> generally doesn't happen in instances.

Yupp, I have taken to always carrying 80 of the highest water with me and
often sit down to drink for a few ticks after a fight.

> Riptide, including it's HoT portion, heals for about as much as chain
> heal does on it's main target, and is a smidgen cheaper. And given
> that part of it's a HoT, you can potentially cast it sooner without
> losing healing to overhealing and it will give you greater HpS on the
> following heals on that target.

I'll look into this, thanks.

> On the otherside of the coin, recount is a useful tool for giving you
> an idea on how well geared/specced the tank is. Click on the tank's
> row on the Recount window and on the window that pops up, click on the
> magnifying glass icon in the top right corner group of icons, click on
> the text that says "click for incoming" and examine the Melee column.
> If the tank has been taking crits, then you know they're a bit short
> on their defense rating. Not that surprising while leveling, but if
> that percentage is up in the 4-6%, then they can't have much defense
> gear on. The other useful number is the 'Hit' number.

Cool, I'll check this out.

> So there's some suggestions on how you might try healing

Thanks, I'll certainly try to get more use out of riptide.

> and how you might try to decide if it's your healing or the tanking
> that's lacking. ; )

That should at least make me feel better, knowing it wasn't my fault :-)

> Though the Auchindoun crypts can be rough place, especially the first
> pull. If the tank runs right down the middle and agro's half the room
> and you survive that

Hehe. Each time in there the tank pulled the first two groups. On three
occasions we wiped, on two more we pulled through with a couple of deaths. I
don't even want to think about half the room...

Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (65), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

I think it was Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> that wrote something
like...

>> Though the Auchindoun crypts can be rough place, especially the first
>> pull. If the tank runs right down the middle and agro's half the room
>> and you survive that
>
>Hehe. Each time in there the tank pulled the first two groups. On three
>occasions we wiped, on two more we pulled through with a couple of deaths. I
>don't even want to think about half the room...

Well, if they pull 5 mobs, 5 ghosts will spawn. I don't recall if
that includes the patrol though, so it might be 6 mobs and 6 ghosts.
At least the ghosts are not elite, though initially in heroic Crypts I
think they were. It got nerfed at some point in time though.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

On 2010-06-16 09:06:07 -0700, Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM@totalise.co.uk> said:

>
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:02:11 -0700, C J Campbell
> <christophercampbellremovethis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-06-16 07:23:19 -0700, Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM@totalise.co.uk> said:
>>
>>>
>>> On 16 Jun 2010 13:49:57 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, it was less of a problem with the Shammy and I have now progressed
>>>> to level 65 which means I have been running Mana Tombs about 3 or 4 times
>>>> and have just been to Auchenai Crypts twice.
>>>>
>>>> And I have made a disturbing discovery. I run out of mana. People die. I
>>>> suck at healing.
>>>
>>> I don't know enough about shamans to help directly, but I noted the
>>> name "Mana Tombs" above... that is your problem :-P
>>
>> This one time we were in Mana Tombs we wiped twice on trash mobs at the
>> end of a corridor. I was losing all of my mana right at the beginning
>> of the fight. Turned out there was a mana wyrm that was "stuck" in a
>> wall. Like other stuck mobs, he couldn't be hit, but he could still
>> drain mana. The way we dealt with it is we kept everyone further back,
>> out of range of the stuck mob, and the tank went up and aggroed the
>> trash and brought them back to us. Then we all just ran past the stuck
>> mob.
>>
>> Then we found two more stuck mana wyrms.
>
> Argh! Can't imagine anything worse than that lol, always hated those
> wyrms, but stuck in a wall, arrgh :-)

At least the group had good humor about it and a willingness to deal
with the problem instead of whining, blaming, and leaving.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Jun 16, 9:49*am, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> My character is Taalas on Dun Morogh EU if you want
> to check him out in the armory.
> Stats
> 232 Stamina
> 305 Intellect
> 162 Spirit
> 1682 Armour
> 381 Healing bonus
> 16.3% Crit chance
> 105 mp5

Get rid of all of your spirit gear, every single piece.

Spirit is a completely wasted stat for a shaman.

That 105 mp5 you are talking about? It's really 20 mp5. Shamans do not
have talents that convert spirit to mana regen while casting, unlike
cloth or leather classes, which makes spirit a useless stat.

Next, get some more heirloom gear. In particular, get the Aurastone
Hammer and enchant it with the Molten Core 30 spell power enchant.
That's a 68 spell power, single slot upgrade. Add to that the
Discerning Eye of the Beast trinket, and you'll have 101 more spell
power than you currently do now.

The trinket's proc won't help you while grouping, as healers rarely
get killing blows, but it's still better than wearing a PvP trinket.

I'd also replace all your cloth heirloom gear with the mail heirloom
gear. That's a very noticeable mana regen upgrade right there.

Finally, go to Nagrand and do the Nessingway quests for the Totem of
the Plains, which increases the spell power of Lesser Healing Wave by
79.
--
// T.Hsu

On 16 Jun 2010 18:19:57 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:19 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
>> In <slrni1hlk5.m24.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>> > Stats
>> > 162 Spirit
>>
>> Why is your spirit so high?
>
>For two reasons:
>1. Some gear just comes with spirit :-)
>2. I started giving +spirit preference on the last few drops as I seem to
>need to drink too often...
>
>> Shamans don't want spirit.
>
>... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
>want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
>totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
>I regen in long fights?

Mp5 is your regen stat (at the moment, it'll be spirit in Cataclysm
when they merge it with mp5) - spirit is for those classes (priest,
druid) who have talents which allow them to get 50% of their
spirit-based regen while casting. Shamans don't have such a talent, so
while you're in a fight you get zero benefit from all that spirit,
unless you happen to stop casting for over 5 seconds (unlikely, in a
fight intense enough for you to need the regen)

>> > I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
>> > on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
>>
>> Low-level shamans want as much Int as they can get, for a larger mana pool.
>> Don't worry about spellpower so much. Crit is good for getting Improved
>> Water Shield procs.
>
>Thanks. That's what I did for a while and then went for +SP instead. I'll
>switch back to +int then (assuming 65 is still "low level"

Ideally you want both - most items will come with both int and
spellpower on, and are what's best to go for, given the choice. I
wouldn't take a spellpower item without int (unless it's mile better
than whatever you had before), but I personally wouldn't take an int
item without spellpower either, maybe others are different to me
there.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (80 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (80 Human Rogue)

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:59:48 +0100, Catriona R wrote:
>
> On 16 Jun 2010 18:19:57 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:19 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
> >> In <slrni1hlk5.m24.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
> >>
> >> > Stats
> >> > 162 Spirit
> >>
> >> Why is your spirit so high?
> >
> >For two reasons:
> >1. Some gear just comes with spirit :-)
> >2. I started giving +spirit preference on the last few drops as I seem to
> >need to drink too often...
> >
> >> Shamans don't want spirit.
> >
> >... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
> >want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
> >totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
> >I regen in long fights?
>
> Mp5 is your regen stat (at the moment, it'll be spirit in Cataclysm
> when they merge it with mp5) - spirit is for those classes (priest,
> druid) who have talents which allow them to get 50% of their
> spirit-based regen while casting.

Ah, of course. But it would still help me regen *in between fights*, right?

> Shamans don't have such a talent, so while you're in a fight you get zero
> benefit from all that spirit, unless you happen to stop casting for over
> 5 seconds (unlikely, in a fight intense enough for you to need the regen)

I was aware of that. With John saying "Shamans don't want spirit" I got the
impression I wouldn't even get a benefit from +spi while not casting.

It seems everything is as I thought then. Mp5 is better than Spi but Spi is
still better than nothing, though Int/SP would still be better than Spi :-)

> >> > I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
> >> > on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
> >>
> >> Low-level shamans want as much Int as they can get, for a larger mana pool.
> >> Don't worry about spellpower so much. Crit is good for getting Improved
> >> Water Shield procs.
> >
> >Thanks. That's what I did for a while and then went for +SP instead. I'll
> >switch back to +int then (assuming 65 is still "low level"
>
> Ideally you want both - most items will come with both int and
> spellpower on

Of course. But say I have an item that gives me 15 more spell power than the
old one at the cost of having 10 int less. Shall I keep the old one or get
the new one. That's the kind of information I was looking for :-) If it
increases both, it's a no-brainer...

> I wouldn't take a spellpower item without int (unless it's mile better
> than whatever you had before), but I personally wouldn't take an int item
> without spellpower either, maybe others are different to me there.

Neither would I. But I often see items drop that have both, one being an
improvment over the current item, the other stat being a reduction.

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (65), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT), ting@thsu.org wrote:
> On Jun 16, 9:49=A0am, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > My character is Taalas on Dun Morogh EU if you want
> > to check him out in the armory.
> > Stats
> > 232 Stamina
> > 305 Intellect
> > 162 Spirit
> > 1682 Armour
> > 381 Healing bonus
> > 16.3% Crit chance
> > 105 mp5
>
> Get rid of all of your spirit gear, every single piece.

Well, there is no gear that only has +spirit on it. But I take your meaning
and will try to replace it with items that use their item budget for other
stats than spirit (if I can find them

> That 105 mp5 you are talking about? It's really 20 mp5. Shamans do not
> have talents that convert spirit to mana regen while casting, unlike
> cloth or leather classes, which makes spirit a useless stat.

So what you are saying is, that the number on my character screen given for
mp5 is my regen out of combat?

> Next, get some more heirloom gear. In particular, get the Aurastone
> Hammer and enchant it with the Molten Core 30 spell power enchant.
> That's a 68 spell power, single slot upgrade.

Thanks, though that will mean switching to my main to earn the currency
first

> Add to that the Discerning Eye of the Beast trinket, and you'll have 101
> more spell power than you currently do now.
>
> The trinket's proc won't help you while grouping, as healers rarely
> get killing blows

I'll look into that.

> but it's still better than wearing a PvP trinket.

I am wearing the PvP trinket to break loss of control, I found that quite
useful while levelling.

> I'd also replace all your cloth heirloom gear with the mail heirloom
> gear. That's a very noticeable mana regen upgrade right there.

I know. But it again means farming on my main. Since I had already bought
the cloth items for my warlock, priest and mage I thought I might as well
use them on the shaman as they were free But I see your point, thanks.

> Finally, go to Nagrand and do the Nessingway quests for the Totem of
> the Plains, which increases the spell power of Lesser Healing Wave by
> 79.

Thanks for that pointer. Although I'll try to get a level 80 guild mate to
help me, I don't see myself killing 180 animals on my resto shaman :-) I'm
looking forward to skinning them all, though...

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (66), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin