In <slrni1ihlq.aji.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:

> > [spirit]

> Ah, of course. But it would still help me regen *in between fights*, right?

Slightly, yes, but not nearly enough to be worth the loss of some other
stat that's useful in combat.

> It seems everything is as I thought then. Mp5 is better than Spi but Spi is
> still better than nothing, though Int/SP would still be better than Spi :-)

If you can get spirit for free, then yes, it is better than nothing. But
stats usually aren't free; you have to give up X to get Y. If you are
giving up intellect, spellpower, haste, crit, mp5, or heck even stam to get
spirit, then it isn't worth it.

> Of course. But say I have an item that gives me 15 more spell power than the
> old one at the cost of having 10 int less. Shall I keep the old one or get
> the new one. That's the kind of information I was looking for :-) If it
> increases both, it's a no-brainer...

In that specific case, I'd go for the intellect. 150 more mana seems more
valuable than making your spells heal ~20 more health.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

In <slrni1ii30.aji.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:

> So what you are saying is, that the number on my character screen given for
> mp5 is my regen out of combat?

If you mouseover that number, it should display a sub-window which displays
your "while casting" and "while not casting" mp5 figures. I believe the
number given on the main screen is the "not casting" number, but I may be
mistaken.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

On 16 Jun 2010 21:48:42 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:59:48 +0100, Catriona R wrote:
>>
>> On 16 Jun 2010 18:19:57 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:19 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
>> >> In <slrni1hlk5.m24.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > Stats
>> >> > 162 Spirit
>> >>
>> >> Why is your spirit so high?
>> >
>> >For two reasons:
>> >1. Some gear just comes with spirit :-)
>> >2. I started giving +spirit preference on the last few drops as I seem to
>> >need to drink too often...
>> >
>> >> Shamans don't want spirit.
>> >
>> >... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
>> >want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
>> >totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
>> >I regen in long fights?
>>
>> Mp5 is your regen stat (at the moment, it'll be spirit in Cataclysm
>> when they merge it with mp5) - spirit is for those classes (priest,
>> druid) who have talents which allow them to get 50% of their
>> spirit-based regen while casting.
>
>Ah, of course. But it would still help me regen *in between fights*, right?

Yes but seems kinda worthless, since in between fights you can drink,
which is far more effective. There's pretty much no situation where
you'd gain from having spirit on your gear, except the extremely rare
one where you're oom and still in combat but the last mob is cc'd long
enough for you to regen a little... otherwise you're either out of
combat or inside the 5-second rule. Don't focus on trying to get out
of the 5-second rule; that's a spirit-class playstyle, not a
shaman/paladin one, and since in-combat spirit regen got made 50% for
priest/druid, even they don't bother that much with it; I certainly
haven't given it a thought in ages.

>> Shamans don't have such a talent, so while you're in a fight you get zero
>> benefit from all that spirit, unless you happen to stop casting for over
>> 5 seconds (unlikely, in a fight intense enough for you to need the regen)
>
>I was aware of that. With John saying "Shamans don't want spirit" I got the
>impression I wouldn't even get a benefit from +spi while not casting.

Well you do but that's pretty useless, if you're not casting, you can
drink :-P

>It seems everything is as I thought then. Mp5 is better than Spi but Spi is
>still better than nothing, though Int/SP would still be better than Spi :-)

Yeah, spirit is basically almost useless, don't take it unless an item
with it on is better in every other way too. It beats strength or agi,
but that's all you can say for it, even Hit is more helpful (higher
chance to hit on wind shear)

>> >> > I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
>> >> > on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
>> >>
>> >> Low-level shamans want as much Int as they can get, for a larger mana pool.
>> >> Don't worry about spellpower so much. Crit is good for getting Improved
>> >> Water Shield procs.
>> >
>> >Thanks. That's what I did for a while and then went for +SP instead. I'll
>> >switch back to +int then (assuming 65 is still "low level"
>>
>> Ideally you want both - most items will come with both int and
>> spellpower on
>
>Of course. But say I have an item that gives me 15 more spell power than the
>old one at the cost of having 10 int less. Shall I keep the old one or get
>the new one. That's the kind of information I was looking for :-) If it
>increases both, it's a no-brainer...

I'd take the spellpower one, but others might take the int, depends on
a lot of factors really :-)

>> I wouldn't take a spellpower item without int (unless it's mile better
>> than whatever you had before), but I personally wouldn't take an int item
>> without spellpower either, maybe others are different to me there.
>
>Neither would I. But I often see items drop that have both, one being an
>improvment over the current item, the other stat being a reduction.

That's true, those are often tricky to decide on, depends on the exact
situation really, and sometimes I still can't make my mind up. That's
where taking the time to enchant my gear is a plus point; since it
makes these choices easier; ie I don't want to enchant something new
unless it's a clear upgrade ;-)
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (80 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (80 Human Rogue)

On 16 Jun 2010 21:55:44 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT), ting@thsu.org wrote:
>> That 105 mp5 you are talking about? It's really 20 mp5. Shamans do not
>> have talents that convert spirit to mana regen while casting, unlike
>> cloth or leather classes, which makes spirit a useless stat.
>
>So what you are saying is, that the number on my character screen given for
>mp5 is my regen out of combat?

Yes, mouseover that and it'll tell you your regen while casting as
well (which will be a lot lower than your regen not casting, if you've
got that much spirit)

>> Finally, go to Nagrand and do the Nessingway quests for the Totem of
>> the Plains, which increases the spell power of Lesser Healing Wave by
>> 79.
>
>Thanks for that pointer. Although I'll try to get a level 80 guild mate to
>help me, I don't see myself killing 180 animals on my resto shaman :-) I'm
>looking forward to skinning them all, though...

It's not 180 animals now, started on that chain earlier tonight and so
far it's 12 per quest instead of 30, slight improvement ;-)
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (80 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (80 Human Rogue)

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:06:17 +0100, Catriona R wrote:
>
> On 16 Jun 2010 21:48:42 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:59:48 +0100, Catriona R wrote:
> >>
> >> On 16 Jun 2010 18:19:57 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:19 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
> >> >> In <slrni1hlk5.m24.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Stats
> >> >> > 162 Spirit
> >> >>
> >> >> Why is your spirit so high?
> >> >
> >> >For two reasons:
> >> >1. Some gear just comes with spirit :-)
> >> >2. I started giving +spirit preference on the last few drops as I seem to
> >> >need to drink too often...
> >> >
> >> >> Shamans don't want spirit.
> >> >
> >> >... it seems that was a wrong assumption :-) Does that mean that Shamans
> >> >want mp5 only? Or not even that and just use their mana spring and mana tide
> >> >totems (though the later has a 5 min cooldown) and water shield? Or how do
> >> >I regen in long fights?
> >>
> >> Mp5 is your regen stat (at the moment, it'll be spirit in Cataclysm
> >> when they merge it with mp5) - spirit is for those classes (priest,
> >> druid) who have talents which allow them to get 50% of their
> >> spirit-based regen while casting.
> >
> >Ah, of course. But it would still help me regen *in between fights*, right?
>
> Yes but seems kinda worthless, since in between fights you can drink,
> which is far more effective.

Ok, I think I got it now :-)

> >> >> > I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
> >> >> > on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
> >> >>
> >> >> Low-level shamans want as much Int as they can get, for a larger mana pool.
> >> >> Don't worry about spellpower so much. Crit is good for getting Improved
> >> >> Water Shield procs.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks. That's what I did for a while and then went for +SP instead. I'll
> >> >switch back to +int then (assuming 65 is still "low level"
> >>
> >> Ideally you want both - most items will come with both int and
> >> spellpower on
> >
> >Of course. But say I have an item that gives me 15 more spell power than the
> >old one at the cost of having 10 int less. Shall I keep the old one or get
> >the new one. That's the kind of information I was looking for :-) If it
> >increases both, it's a no-brainer...
>
> I'd take the spellpower one, but others might take the int, depends on
> a lot of factors really :-)

Ah, you're no help ;-)

Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (66), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:58:13 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
> In <slrni1ihlq.aji.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > > [spirit]
>
> > Ah, of course. But it would still help me regen *in between fights*, right?
>
> Slightly, yes, but not nearly enough to be worth the loss of some other
> stat that's useful in combat.
>
> > It seems everything is as I thought then. Mp5 is better than Spi but Spi is
> > still better than nothing, though Int/SP would still be better than Spi :-)
>
> If you can get spirit for free, then yes, it is better than nothing. But
> stats usually aren't free; you have to give up X to get Y. If you are
> giving up intellect, spellpower, haste, crit, mp5, or heck even stam to get
> spirit, then it isn't worth it.

Got it, thanks.

> > Of course. But say I have an item that gives me 15 more spell power than the
> > old one at the cost of having 10 int less. Shall I keep the old one or get
> > the new one. That's the kind of information I was looking for :-) If it
> > increases both, it's a no-brainer...
>
> In that specific case, I'd go for the intellect. 150 more mana seems more
> valuable than making your spells heal ~20 more health.

Thanks for that, too.

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (66), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:08:25 +0100, Catriona R wrote:
>
> On 16 Jun 2010 21:55:44 GMT, Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT), ting@thsu.org wrote:
> >> That 105 mp5 you are talking about? It's really 20 mp5. Shamans do not
> >> have talents that convert spirit to mana regen while casting, unlike
> >> cloth or leather classes, which makes spirit a useless stat.
> >
> >So what you are saying is, that the number on my character screen given for
> >mp5 is my regen out of combat?
>
> Yes, mouseover that and it'll tell you your regen while casting as
> well (which will be a lot lower than your regen not casting, if you've
> got that much spirit)

Thanks.

> >> Finally, go to Nagrand and do the Nessingway quests for the Totem of
> >> the Plains, which increases the spell power of Lesser Healing Wave by
> >> 79.
> >
> >Thanks for that pointer. Although I'll try to get a level 80 guild mate to
> >help me, I don't see myself killing 180 animals on my resto shaman :-) I'm
> >looking forward to skinning them all, though...
>
> It's not 180 animals now, started on that chain earlier tonight and so
> far it's 12 per quest instead of 30, slight improvement ;-)

Ah, bye bye leather then :-) On the other hand it's still two blocks of
three animal types with 12 each. Killing 72 mobs with a resto shaman is no
mean task... and when going for the elites I'd probably need help anyway.

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (66), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:01:01 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon wrote:
> In <slrni1ii30.aji.urbin@stinky-local.trash.net> Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > So what you are saying is, that the number on my character screen given for
> > mp5 is my regen out of combat?
>
> If you mouseover that number, it should display a sub-window which displays
> your "while casting" and "while not casting" mp5 figures. I believe the
> number given on the main screen is the "not casting" number, but I may be
> mistaken.

Cool, thanks. Just to prove that I can learn something new after more than
five years of playing

Cheers
Urbin

--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Juran (62), Druid
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (65), Deathknight | Taalas (66), Shaman
Sunh (80), Priest | Greeta (50), Rogue | Gera (26), Paladin

On Jun 16, 6:23*pm, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Ah, bye bye leather then :-) On the other hand it's still two blocks of
> three animal types with 12 each. Killing 72 mobs with a resto shaman is no
> mean task... and when going for the elites I'd probably need help anyway.

Most healers should dual spec. Soloing is just too slow as a healer,
and there are always times where you need to solo. The only exceptions
are priests, who can craft up a holy dps spec that's viable for
healing.

As a resto shaman, you could go elemental, keep the same gear, and
still do pretty well soloing. You won't solo as well as you would in
full elemental gear, but it'll still be a night and day difference.
--
// T.Hsu

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:08:25 -0700 (PDT), ting@thsu.org wrote:

>On Jun 16, 6:23*pm, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Ah, bye bye leather then :-) On the other hand it's still two blocks of
>> three animal types with 12 each. Killing 72 mobs with a resto shaman is no
>> mean task... and when going for the elites I'd probably need help anyway.
>
>Most healers should dual spec. Soloing is just too slow as a healer,
>and there are always times where you need to solo. The only exceptions
>are priests, who can craft up a holy dps spec that's viable for
>healing.

Even more so with Cataclysm, seriously looking forward to a fun holy
dps spec then! I tend to dualspec my priests anyway, since I prefer to
heal with a full healing build, but indeed holy dps specs are good
enough for healing; I ran my half disc half holy spec up through all
the normal instances and a few heroic runs in early WotLK (didn't want
to spend a ton of gold on respecs while I was still finishing up
quests) and worked fine, phew :-)

>As a resto shaman, you could go elemental, keep the same gear, and
>still do pretty well soloing. You won't solo as well as you would in
>full elemental gear, but it'll still be a night and day difference.

Yeah I'd agree there, resto doesn't have any noticeable damage
talents, plus you get oom very fast trying to solo that way, while
elemental is really fun - the beauty is, if you're mainly
spellpower/int/crit gear, it's fine for both :-) Only need 3% hit to
cap if you're not raiding, so even having no hit on your gear won't
hurt much, and the mp5 instead of whatever else isn't that bad really,
should work nicely.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (80 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (80 Human Rogue)

Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> And I have made a disturbing discovery. I run out of mana. People die. I
> suck at healing.

use water shield, ofc

glyoh of healing wave helps much, you can be self-helaed when you're
helingwaving the tank, or whoever (dps) in your groups needs healing

now i dont remember at witch level you'll learn riptide and at witch
level you can have the riptide, it's 51 resto point iirc

when you cast riptide on a party member the chain heal you start from
him its a critical hit (at level 80 means around 18k heal to riptided
man)

anyway, here's the talents and gluphs link of my main (resto shammy):
<http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ta...=Kansula&gn=AQ
UILE+NERE>

take a look at it, and hoe it helps

> Seriously, levelling from 15 to 60 as a healer purely using /lfg has been a
> walk in the park. I usually had mana to spare to do a little damage on the
> side (usually around 4%).
>
> Now, I suddenly find that I end trash pulls at half mana and have to sit
> down after every second group or so. Also, I've occasionally had tanks (or
> other group members) die on me because my heal took too long to finish.

in my opinion, first stat for a resto shammy is mp5, suddendly haste
rating

so you can have your mana pool often at maximum level, and can cast
spell fast

next thing I learned palying my shammy its' *timing*, healing in that
class it's only a matter of timing

sometimes I choosed the wrong to some-heal-someone and suddendly we
wipe...

still in my opinion, healing it's also matter of cold blood, you must
keep in mind the casting time you have for certain spell (healing wave,
less healing, and chain heal) comparing with thw time the target is
loosing hp, you must keep the right time to start casting in some
critical situation

> I am starting to wonder what the cause could be. I have several theories:
>
> 1. BC instances are harder compared to vanilla instances

in my experience they are "different", can't tell how...

> 2. The tanks I have are worse geared or badly specced and are therefore
> taking more damage than they should, hence draining more of my mana

maybe

> 3. I am badly geared or badly specced

I read talent's descriptions one by one to know what they could do and
when, and I build up my spec on my own

> 4. I put priorities on the wrong stats

maybe

> 4. My healing "rotation" sucks

I think that for resto shammy it isn't strictly matter of "rotation",
healing is more "situational"

> 5. I just suck full stop

don't know

> My character is Taalas on Dun Morogh EU if you want to check him out in the
> armory.
>
> Talent spec
> - I wanted to get Tidal Waves and Riptide
> - my next point goes into 2/2 Imp Earth Shield
> - should I put my next points in Nature's Blessing for more int based
> healing?
> - or is it better to put them into Totemic Focus to reduce the mana cost of
> my totems? So far I didn't see the point in this but lately it seems
> constantly casting my totems only to move on too far to still use them
> on the next group is making a considerable dent in my mana pool. And
> yes, I am using Totemic Recall to get 25% mana back when discarding
> the old totems.
> - I believe with a competent tank there should be no need for Healing Grace,
> Healing Focus and Nature's Guardian as I expect not to be beaten upon
> (though occasionally that is a vain hope Is it worth putting points
> in these or should I rather spend them in the other two trees? I've got
> pretty much everything else in the resto tree maxed out.

at level 66 i'd rather prefer this spec:
<http://www.wowhead.com/talent#hZ0x0oZx0ezIeoxorhRt>

> Rotation
> - my main heal is Chain Heal, even if only the tank is taking damage, as it
> heals for about the same amount as Lesser Healing Wave and only uses
> minimally more mana. It has the advantage of covering others, should they be
> taking damage shortly before the heal finishes and it also winds up Tidal
> Waves
> - I use Lesser Healing Wave if Tidal Waves is up and only the tank is taking
> damage
> - I use Healing Wave if the tank is missing a big chunk of health
> - I have a macro for Nature's Swiftness/Tidal Forces/Healing Wave to
> insta-heal the tank in emergencies, however this has a 2 and 3 minute
> cooldown
> - only just having gotten Riptide I keep forgetting to use it. What is the
> best moment to use it?

riptide is awesome if you have a warlock in group, everytime you it's hp
going down and it's mana going up, you should that he's using life tap,
so you can cast riptide on him

> - same with Earth Shield. Had it for a while but keep forgetting to apply it

i use an addon called zomgbuff to remember me to refresh the earth
shield on tank simply using the mouse wheel when out of combat and
clicking on an icon on the screen if I should need to refresh in combat

> Heals
> - chain heal: 1.7-1.9k depending on buffs
> - lesser healing wave: 1.7-2k depending on buffs
> - healing wave: 3.7-4.1k depending on buffs
> Are these values ok for level 65?
>
> Stats
> 232 Stamina
> 305 Intellect
> 162 Spirit
> 1682 Armour
> 381 Healing bonus
> 16.3% Crit chance
> 105 mp5
>
> I'm not quite sure how to set priorities. At the moment I am putting a focus
> on +sp for healing bonus and on +int for mana pool and crit chance. Should I
> favour +spi/+mp5 for regen? I used to be out of the 5 second rule for quite
> some time healing in vanilla instances but since Coilfang Reservoir and now
> Auchindon I seem to rarely be out of it anymore. What is the recommended
> priority?
> - +SP over +Int/Crit over +spi/mp5
> - +SP over +Spi/Mp5 over +Int/Crit
> - +Spi/Mp5 over +SP over +Int/Crit
> I didn't find anything on this on wowwiki.

as I said, and in my opnion, primary stat is mp5, then haste, at least
at level 80

you can point on mp5 (and remember to ask for BoW if there's a paladin
in your group), then sp, then haste

> Glyphs
> Major
> - Glyph of Water Mastery (for better regen)
> - Glyph of Healing Wave (keep me alive while healing others)
> - locked (I plan to get either Riptide or Chain Heal)

I should use glyph of earthliving weapon insted of water mastery

> Minor
> - Glyph of Water Shield (for better regen)
> - Glyph of Water Walking (used more often than water breathing, save space
> in bag)
> - locked (I plan to get Astral Recall)
>
>
> Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

you're welcome

--
Here's to you Nicola and Bart
Rest forever here in our hearts
The last and final moment is yours
That agony is your triumph!

> I am starting to wonder what the cause could be. I have several
> theories:
>
> 1. BC instances are harder compared to vanilla instances
> 2. The tanks I have are worse geared or badly specced and are
> therefore taking more damage than they should, hence draining
> more of my mana
> 3. I am badly geared or badly specced
> 4. I put priorities on the wrong stats
> 4. My healing "rotation" sucks
> 5. I just suck full stop


I have another theory:

6. I don't have the maximum spell ranks in my action bar

Seriously, I was in a similar situation with my priest, until I realized
I didn't have the max ranks in my actionbar, which is a known issue when
you have dual-spec (action bar buttons of the inactive spec don't get
updated when visiting the trainer). Fixed that, and my healing was fine
again.

After that, I installed the RankWatch addon, which not only checks my
own spells, but those of the party/raid members as well. You won't
believe HOW MANY players are running around with this same problem.